Episode 165: Teaching Kids to use Kindness as they Resolve Conflicts With Kat Newport

DJ Stutz  0:00  
Welcome everyone. Thanks for joining us today on imperfect heroes, insights into parenting. We have such a great episode today, continuing on our theme of kindness for the month. And I have a great guest, Kat Newport. She's amazing. But before we get started, I just wanted to let y'all know that our podcast has been nominated for Best podcast in the category of parenting, family and kids, by the women in podcasting association. So exciting. Voting is actually open now. It ends October 1, so I'm going to put the link in the show notes for you to just go down click vote for us. So you'll you'll see the category. You might have to scroll down a little bit. There's about 18 different podcasts that are nominated, and so I'm just excited. I'm just honored to be nominated, but I would love to win.

So there we are. Thank you so much everyone. Now, let's get going on our conversation. What a fun thing to talk about, and this is such an important piece of I think being kind is understanding how to manage conflict without a punch in the nose.  But we want to help our kids understand how to best approach a conflicted situation, how to manage their emotions, how to look at things and understand Mom and Dad, how we are just getting started. It's not something that happens overnight. It's something that we work on from an early age. I've helped families with kids as young as to start in on this progress, but with two, it's a very small thing, and it's going to grow as they get older. So very exciting, Kat. I am so excited. You decided to come in and join us and be a part of our show. So let's first talk to our people a little bit about who you are, what you do, and then we'll jump in. 

Kat Newport  1:57  
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. DJ and Congratulations on your nomination, yay. Thank you. I'm Kat Newport. I'm up here in the great white north, so I'm operating out of Canada, but I work internationally as a conflict educator, a mediator, a conflict coach, and by day, I'm a regional manager of human resources. So if you want conflict, try human resources.  So I do a lot with  estate management, so managing and mitigating and mediating family disputes and that kind of thing. So yeah, I'm this crazy person who injects themselves into conflict. 

DJ Stutz  2:33  
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough thing. I've had friends who were family law attorneys, and they would just get so dejected sometimes, you know, with just and I have other well, I have brothers and a son in law, actually, who would not touch family law with a 10 foot pole. Very emotionally charged, very emotionally charged. So let's get going then, like I was saying earlier, I believe you can start getting those early inklings of managing big emotions, and I want that truck or whatever, so I'll just bang you on the head with it. And so early on, you're able to just start helping our kids be aware of other opportunities and ways to manage conflict. I really believe that practice is a big thing with our little guys, so I'm big on the weekly family meeting, and part of that is taking maybe some situations that you've seen come up. This is not judgmental. This is when everyone's calm, everyone's happy, you're having fun. You're playing games. Oh, let's do some role play, and let them practice how to get the block or the truck or my sister's sweater in an appropriate way, and we practice and role play. How would you suggest getting things started with our little guys? 

Kat Newport  3:58  
Love that role play idea. And the earlier you started, I think the better off. Because when I come into conflict education series, I'm typically, I'm almost exclusively dealing with adults, and we do the exact same thing we do these role plays. There's no emotions here. Let's take it down. So we're actually patterning in on folks who may or may not have had this skill set given to them by their families because conflict management and how you manage conflict begins from the moment you draw breath, you start learning from the folks around you, and that's typically your core family. So the role play is a really, really big one, and modeling is another huge one on my list of how we're going to transmit that if you're the parent who didn't get the good messages when you were a kid and are a little shaky on that conflict management piece, start looking at yourself. How are you dealing with those conflicts? You know, when your partner forgets to pick up the milk on the way home, are you yelling, or are you practicing empathy? Because the child is watching there is it? I want your truck. I'm going to yell at you.  Or, I see you're playing with the truck. Can I have it after these modeling pieces will give them the tools they need in the moment. So definitely role play and definitely modeling, right? 

DJ Stutz  5:11  
And I think as adults, we we tend to be more spur the moment, little more maybe, than we used to be. I don't know, but being able to really identify, why am I mad over milk? Is milk really worth the harm it would do to my relationship with my spouse by getting mad at them for forgetting it's milk, and so putting things, I think, really into perspective of what this really means, why am I energized about this and looking inwardly. So as with, I think with most, almost all parenting issues, we need to look inward as a parent and say, What are my values? What am I exhibiting? What are my ways? What are the boundaries I'm placing on myself? You know, we talk about setting boundaries right as we're caring for ourselves and or teaching our children, don't do this, don't do that, but we need to set boundaries for ourselves and maybe taking that moment when we find ourselves yelling to say, whoa, whoa. When did I start yelling? No, no, no. I didn't mean to yell, you know. And it and if they see you doing that, even with your spouse, the kids see you and say, sweetie, wow, that was charged.  I'm sorry. I don't know why I got so emotional over milk or whatever it is, right? And they see the kids, see us as adults, as loving parents, interacting with each other in that way that's going to bring it home quicker than pretty much anything else you can do. 

Kat Newport  6:44  
Absolutely. You have said so many good things in that little snippet, so many good things. I want to pull a couple of them out. Number one is relationships. So my book smart conflict is actually built off an acronym that I use to train and the R stands for relationship, which is at the core of every conflict, be it separating from a spouse, be it with your child, be it with your boss, at the at the crux of every conflict as a relationship. So that's the first thing I wanted to pull out. So concentrate on what you want that relationship to look like. The second thing I want to pull out here is situation. That's the s figure out what you're upset about first, because it's usually not the milk, right? Exactly what else. And this goes for our children as well. It might not be that sweater that they're really upset about. It might be what that sweater stands for, fitting in its whatever that that surrounding piece is. So as a parent becoming curious about why the truck, why the sweater is so important. Why is it causing this emotional charge? Because it's probably not the sweater. If you look at family law, for example, you know people getting divorced because my spouse left the top off the toothpaste one more time.

DJ Stutz  7:54  
Really? 

Kat Newport  7:54  
About the toothpaste, right? It's about the disregard. It's about not listening. It's about not working together. These are the things that lead up to the divorce over the toothpaste. And so it goes with many other conflicts as well. So that s piece, that situation, and the R piece, that relationship, super important. And I love the fact that you're bringing boundaries in here. And when I say boundaries, I get a lot of folks who think that these are steel walls topped with barbed wire, you know, and emote entrenched with razor wire. When I talk about boundaries, I talk about living hedges. These are things that make really great neighbors. They look fantastic in the summer, but they do need maintenance and care. They need to be trimmed. They need to be pruned. They need to potentially be moved a little bit, depending on the situation, depending on the environment. So it's important that a, you understand you need a boundary. B, you put a boundary in place, and C, you tend to that boundary on the regular those are super important. So those are the three things that you brought up that I really resonated with. 

DJ Stutz  7:54  
Well, thank you so much. And one of the things too is boundaries will change as our children grow. A two year old does not need the same boundaries as a seven year old, and so we need to recognize when maybe our boundaries need to expand, depending on the development and age and whatever of the child. But even in relationships, right as you get closer and closer, you might have a boundary with someone you're just gone out on a first date with, as compared to are you going to have that same boundary once you're married and you're a spouse and you're raising kids, and so when you talk about how that relationship comes into Place, recognize that boundaries expand and contract depending on that relationship and what's appropriate at that time.

Kat Newport  9:46  
Absolutely, absolutely. I have nothing else to add. Just absolutely,

DJ Stutz  9:54 Well, thanks. So talk about smart. Because I really love this acronym. I love the way that it can play out into, I think, pretty much any situation. 

Kat Newport  10:05  
It's true. It's so true. Smart, when it was developed, was a way of self reflecting about conflict, because it is my philosophy, and it's an arguable philosophy, but it is my philosophy that you bring more into the argument, typically, than the other person does. You're in conflict with someone else, but you've got a whole narrative. You've got a whole lot of baggage around conflict, about the topic, about the person, about the situation, about the environment you're in. So there's a lot of context that goes into that. So really understanding that when you get into conflict is super important. So we talked about the s which is situation, understand what you're upset about, and reflect on your child's perspective. Help them understand what they're upset about. You know, we so many times assume that, oh, it's just the truck, but it's not okay. We haven't slept. It's right before lunch, and yesterday, their brother stole the truck from them. There's a lot more coming around this. So this is about a power dynamic. This is about energy reserves. So much more. So not only understanding the perspective of we have a truck problem, we also have a problem as well. So look at the current situation. Look at the context. M is about measuring emotions. So when we get SM, measure those emotions, starting with yours,

DJ Stutz  11:23  
Absolutely 

Kat Newport  11:25  
We talked about coming in yelling about the milk. Measure your own emotions. So learn about where those emotions are coming from. Just because you have emotions doesn't mean you have to act on them. They are signposts in the sand saying something's not quite right. Doesn't mean you have to act on that in the moment. It says, I need your attention over here, because something is going on. That's what an emotion tells you, and you need to unpack that. So not only do you have to self soothe yourself, you also have to teach those skills to the child. So you're angry. So what's the anger about? Where do you feel your anger? Who's your anger at? What's your anger at? So really understanding that emotion and then sitting with it, a lot of us say, you know, go to your room until you calm down. No.

DJ Stutz  12:16  
Not helpful. Not helpful. No. I'm very anti sending them away to their room. They need you more than ever to help them through it. So anyway, I jumped in, sorry, but absolutely no, no, 

Kat Newport  12:31  
I'm with you.   Sit with them. Emotions are transitory. The more the child gets comfortable sitting in the emotion, the more they're going to understand that. Yes, I got angry, but oh, there it goes, and out it comes, and now we can act on the situation at hand. So sitting with that emotion, knowing that it's going to come and it's going to go, and that you don't have to act on it right now, super important when you come to the M measure those emotions. A is about agenda. I say agenda. And most people think, Oh, the nefarious, underhanded, shady kind of agenda. And that's not it. When you're coming into a conflict, let the other person know why you're there. I really want to talk to you about the truck. I want to make sure that we're playing nicely together. Can we talk about the truck? I just told you my agenda. This is what I want to do. So this helps practice problem solving, because going into a conflict with adults, I know most folks come in raging. They don't know what they want, they don't know why they're angry, they don't know what the outcome is supposed to be, and they don't give a darn about the relationship. They just want to feel better. So really understanding what you want out of the conflict becomes super duper important. We talked about the R. The R is the relationship. Think about what you want to the relationship to look like after the conflict is over, right? I come from Gen X. Stop your crying, or I'll give you a reason to cry.  You're a Gen X too. Okay? 

DJ Stutz  13:59  
I'm well, I'm well, I'm at the I'm like the youngest of the boomers, but I have to admit it, I'm there. 

Kat Newport  14:06  
So I was very much raised with the, you know, quit your ball in her. I'll give you a reason to ball. But what does it say about the relationship? It says if you're crying, I don't care.  It's making me uncomfortable right now, I'm going to actually give you a reason to do that. My mind is valued,   Yep, absolutely I need to feel more comfortable, and I don't understand why you're crying. So I'm going to give you a reason to cry that I understand. What does that do to that parent child relationship, and how does that eventually manifest itself into the workplace? So look at the relationship. You know, I thought I saw you wanted to jump in there. I can pause here if you want before 

DJ Stutz  14:42  
Oh, you're so cute. You're so cute well, and one of the things for me is I would never, ever tell a child to stop crying, because then it becomes a power struggle. How are you physically, honestly going to make that kid stop crying? You can threaten them, scare them. That's not a great way.  Right? You can ignore them again, or you can acknowledge, wow, I can see you're really sad and you need to cry, and so that's fine. Do you want me to sit with you while you cry? Do you want to go into our cozy corner while you cry? And then when you're done, though, you'll be able to tell me better about what you need, because I can't really understand what's going on. I want to understand so can help you with breaths. But you're helping them through it, and you're not saying quit crying. Don't cry. Don't cry. It's like, oh, it looks like you need to cry. They will stop crying so much faster when they have permission, then when you're trying to get them to stop. And so that stop crying thing is a kind of a touch point for me. I'm with you there.

Kat Newport  15:53  
We're resonating. This is good. The last letter of smart is the t, and this talks about time and place, pick the right time and pick the right place. So the first thing I would suggest is give the child the power of the pause. You can't talk right now. That's okay. We can hit pause. We can just wait until you feel like you can, Mm, hmm. Give them the power of the pause, and take the power yourself as well. If you're in a heightened emotional state, take the power of the pots. Mommy just needs to go to the garage for a second. I'll be right back. Take that power to give yourself that space. Also give the child the right to privacy. Take the privacy yourself as well. In the workplace, I see a lot of times conflicts happening in public. You didn't do your report right. You were missed your deadline. This is a problem. This is really the same thing with the kids. You don't want to sit in front of the family going, you are very bad. This is what you did. You're now bringing humiliation, you're bringing social pressure, you're bringing ostracism, ostracization. Can't say that big word, um, you're bringing all of that into the situation which brings shame. So that privacy when you're having those difficult conversations becomes very important. And we also want to consider emotional safety. And I think we've been talking a lot about that already. You know, stop your crying. Don't cry. Don't do this. What would your grandmother think? This does not provide emotional safety or a conflict. It provides anything but to deal with the conflict. It's important to have that emotional safety and set up that emotional safety. And I see that again in adults as well. That from my HR perspective. You know, my office is in a sterile office. You know, there's always water available, there's always tissues available. There's these things that provide at least some media modicum of solace as we move through it. And it becomes especially important when we're dealing with children who are taking this all in, and are going to manifest that as they grow and move into the workplace. 

DJ Stutz  18:01  
You bring up so many great and really important points, but I love that you talked about giving them privacy and sometimes admitting like, Mommy needs a time out, hang on, and then come back and say, All right, I'm a little calmer now. Now we can talk, I think, also recognizing that when these emotions are way up here and they're just exploding, they're not going to learn anything from you. That's not a learning time. That's a time to help them process through I can see you're really upset. Let's calm down. What can I help you with? Do you want to stay here again? Giving choices? I think giving choices really helps kids and adults, honestly, to calm down, then they feel like they've got some kind of control in the situation. And so that is just huge. And also coming back to what are the opportunities here for me to enhance my relationship with my child in this moment? Because really, these are the moments it's easy to be nice when everyone's calm, when everyone's having fun, nobody's tired, nobody's hungry, nobody's hot, nobody's whatever. We're all just chillin it's easy. But what's when the conflicts are hard, when they're big, and they may not be big to us, but they're big to the kiddo, or may not be big to me, but it's big to my husband. And so sit back, look at that perspective piece that you brought up so well, and really kind of see around what's going on. What is this really about, and how can I improve our relationship? 

Kat Newport  19:43  
Absolutely, one thing I'd like to pop on to the end of that is what you invest in conflict now is what's going to circle back around later. So if you're investing yelling and screaming and threatening and putting the child in the room, now that's what you're going to get next time they're going to yell and they're going to scream and they're going to storm off. This is what you're investing and what you invest in gains interest and comes back to you. So be very, very cognizant of what you're putting into that relationship, what you're putting into the conflict narrative. I deal a lot with adults who have really, really awful conflict narratives, in some cases devastating conflict narratives that if we invested differently, if it changed, if it never fell off the rails to begin with, this would be ending so very differently. So that cycle and that investment is super important to highlight 

DJ Stutz  20:36  
Absolutely. I think it goes back to that old saying, you get more of what you give the most attention to. So if your child is only getting your attention by screaming and yelling or hitting my brother or whatever, and that's when you rush in, okay, then you're going to get more of that. Quite honestly, meltdowns in public. Those are fun. They're kind of my favorite actually.  I was like, Oh, here we are. There you go.  Alrighty, well, and then too, I think, making sure that we are encouraging our children to get the things that they want in a proper way, so that if we're taking a different route that's violent, that is negative, that is hurtful, that's not how you get what you want. And so I see that you're upset, because I see so many kids and adults say the same thing, well, I was mad. Why would you say something like that? Well, I was mad.  Is that gonna work for them when they're in a marriage? Is that going to work for them when they are in the workforce or on a football team or whatever it is, those reactions, it's not an excuse. And yet, I hear adults use it all the time, and I see kids using it as well. It was okay for me to do that because I was mad. 

Kat Newport  21:58  
See a lot of the flip side of that as well. So if we're dealing with polars here, we've got, I have these emotions, and this is the excuse for what I do, what I do on the other side of that spectrum, knowing that there's whole shades of gray in between. Oh, sure, is the self sacrificer, and there's a huge difference between empathy and self sacrifice that I'm just going to shut up and I'm not going to say anything, and I'm going to say anything, and I'm going to swallow it, because I don't want to get into this conflict having no boundaries. And that in itself, causes a whole different narrative on conflict, which is just as unhealthy, where if we focus more towards that gray area, we have empathy coming out. And one of the things I'd like to really point out that empathy isn't really an emotion. Empathy is a choice. Empathy is a choice to say, yes, DJ, I see you're upset. I wouldn't be upset about it, but I see you're upset about it, and this is empathy. I want to be here for you. How can I help this be better for you? I don't understand it, but that's okay. I don't have to understand it. I want our relationship. So empathy is a choice, and I see this come up in a lot of mediations where I'm afraid of reprisal. Well, I don't understand why they're afraid. You don't have to understand. You just have to acknowledge that this individual is afraid of reprisal. This is empathy versus sympathy or compassion,

DJ Stutz  23:16  
Right? And we see this so much in schools, in neighborhoods, in families, jobs, within the government. I mean, this spreads to really, most portions of our lives. So we really want to make sure that as we're working on it, I love what you say. We don't need to understand why they feel that way. I love that. The reality is they feel that way. So let's help them through it 

Kat Newport  23:43  
Precisely, precisely. I love that that empathy is a choice and conflict when you really bring it back to brass tacks, all conflict is, is a difference of perspective. Time for bed. I don't want to go to bed. Difference of perspective. Eat your vegetables. I don't eat my vegetables. Difference of perspective. And when you take out the emotion, and you take out the narratives, and you take out the baggage, and you take out the history brass tacks, when you're dealing with a conflict, you're dealing with perspectives. And if you approach that with curiosity and empathy, it goes a lot smoother, right? 

DJ Stutz  24:20  
Right. I love that word curiosity is like, wow, why is this going on and or even with yourself, curiosity about I did not handle that well.  But instead of beating yourself up about it, I wonder why I reacted the way I did. And kind of review, and you may need to go back a few minutes, few hours, a few days. Why would I react the way that I did right now and get curious about it? Because then you're able to do something about it. If you're just beating yourself up about it, you're not going to get anywhere but helping your kids even get curious about.  Right? And this is something as they get older, a two year old is not going to be able to tell you why, or even that they're afraid or that they're anxious or that they're jealous or that they're whatever they feel them, they don't understand them. And so as we help them through, help them identify, give them choices, we practice scenarios, we do all of those things, then we're able to build and build and build as they get older, so that as they become adults, that they're really good at problem solving and at reaching out to someone else that's upset, but in a kind way, very much, sir.

Kat Newport  25:35  
And one thing I wanted to add is, when you're going back those few minutes, or you're going back those few days that can also be a few years or a few days. I work with families who are in the middle of managing or trying to figure out an estate after the passing of a loved one. I cannot tell you how many things when I was 16, you took this from me, and now we're in this estate, and you're my sister, and we're both 60 years old, and we're in a knock down, drag out fight that I want Nana's necklace, and it typically goes and if we had had the conversation, that curiosity and that empathy, it may never happen to that point. So it might not just be a few minutes, it might be decades, right? So when we look at this from a parent's perspective, it's okay to go back, it's okay to say you've made a mistake. It's okay to make the reparations to the relationship with your child. It's not a weakness, it's actually a strength, and you're investing in that child's future. 

DJ Stutz  26:34  
You're so right, you bring up that amazing point too, about recognizing your own weaknesses, and then coming back and talking to your children about it, and it's okay, they're a big personality here. And I grew up in a very yelling home, and a lot of I'm the oldest of seven. We all have big personalities, and my mom and my dad and you know, all of that. And so there were times when I would like, you, you finally hear yourself in a moment and you're like, when did I start yelling?  I recognize I'm yelling right now. I have no idea when my voice started getting up down to those higher levels and more aggressive tones. And so it's okay to stop right there and say, Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. I am yelling. And they'll be like, Aha, you are Oh, wow. I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was yelling. Let me take a drink. Let me take a breath, and then I can talk to you in the way I really want to talk to you. I didn't want to talk to you in that way, and when you start using that kind of language, and you're verbalizing that process in your head, and your kids are seeing you verbalize it, or, quite honestly, even your adult relationships, whether it's work or school or neighborhood or spouse, whatever, but when they see you that you're like, Whoa, when did when did I start doing this? This is not the way I want to express myself. Hang on just second. It really changes we go back then to that r it really chang es that relationship and builds it.

Kat Newport  28:12  
Very much. So very much. So, another manifestation of this that I see is you hear a parental figure coming out of your mouth. I sound just like my mother or I sound just like my dad, or I sound just like my grandmother. You hear it pop out. You're going, Oh snap, I swore I'd never say that to my children, because it did this to me. This is a perfect time to hit pause, rewind and reinvest. If it's something you swore you'd never say, fix it. 

DJ Stutz  28:38  
Yeah, and it's funny how we say that, but then we become parents or adults or whatever, and it just comes out of our mouth. And you think, where did that come from? I always said I wouldn't, but you just do, and it's okay, that's human nature. But just because something, and I even tell parents this with normal behaviors within a child, it's normal for two to four year old to have a public meltdown because they want the Cocoa Puffs. That's normal. But is it acceptable? No, so they're doing what they should be doing, but that means that now they're at a place where we can help them through, to pass on, through and to grow, rather than just make the always two. Oh, she's three. Or I hear a lot, oh, they're hungry. They were just hungry. Well, okay, but there are better ways to manage when you're hungry. Now that's when we go back to those practicing scenarios and having those family meetings and o pportunities to practice. But just because something is normal doesn't mean that it's the way we want to go. 

Kat Newport  29:44  
It takes courage to stand up and break the cycle. It takes courage to stand up and say, I know this is normal, but I also know this is not right, and this is how we're going to move forward together. That takes break that takes courage. 

DJ Stutz  30:01  
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Oh my gosh, Kat, you're amazing. You're wonderful. I love, love, love, love, love you. So let's talk for a minute now about, I know you've got something for our audience, which you're crazy. If you don't take advantage of this, you guys, I'm just telling you. So, Kat, why don't you talk to us a little bit about what you've got going on? 

Kat Newport  30:22  
Fair enough. So in the show notes, there's a link. If you click on that link, you can get all sorts of information about smart about discovering the roots of situations, all that good stuff. So definitely click on the link. Grab your copy. I have also taken smart conflict and put it into smart conflict. Kids, Sarah, everything we talked about today, everything DJ and I unpacked, is there in bullet point form. So you can have a little bit of an aid memoir, a little bit of a memory aid there to give you a hand when the heat turns on. So there'll be a copy of that in the notes as well. 

DJ Stutz  30:57  
And now I know you have a book out. Talk to me a minute about your book. 

Kat Newport  31:01  
Absolutely. So smart conflict, it was a passion project for me, so I took a sabbatical from work for about a year, year and a half, and I wrote smart conflict. So smart conflict goes through the different processes we've kind of discussed it really pulls it apart, puts it in depth and puts it in context. So I use a lot of stories from when I did conflict really well, usually from when I didn't know, giving you those examples so you can apply them to real life and looking back at those narratives that we have and okay, this is what I learned from my root family. This is what I'm bringing to my current family, and this is what I'm not going to bring to my root family, and how that manifested for me. It's also a really great tool for self reflection. There's some questions for journaling at the end of every chapter that really reinforces that piece of Yes, I know you read it, but did you self reflect upon it? So it does give you a hand with that as well. So I do encourage folks to grab a copy of smart conflict, turning disputes into growth opportunities. You can find that on Amazon. 

DJ Stutz  32:01  
Great. So we're gonna have a link to that on Amazon in the show notes as well, so people can just link and jump over and get your book, and we'll have the download available on smart for kids, and then also the link for them to get in touch with you and to learn more about you and what you do. That's amazing. 

Kat Newport  32:20  
Thanks. DJ, 

DJ Stutz  32:22  
Oh, absolutely. So before we go, I always ask my guests the same question, and so that is, how would you describe a successful parent? 

Kat Newport  32:34  
So I have four children of my own and two grandchildren, and I have children like children of my own, ranging in age from three to 28 so huge gap. Yeah, 28, 26, 20 and ops. I love, I think I would have figured it out. One thing I learned over that very sort of prolonged journey is you, each child you have, and I'm learning with the grandchildren as well. Each grandchild you have comes pre loaded with an amazing personality, with an amazing set of skills, and each one is unique. They were all raised by the same people. They were all raised in the same house, in the same environment, and each one of them is hugely unique. I think a successful parent is one who can adapt their style to meet each one of them where they stand at whatever growth point they're at, because I've had them at all, whatever growth point. Because what I'm figuring out I'm still parenting my 28 year old, I never seems to end that there's always those opportunities to provide insights and perspectives and growth. So meet them where they're at and invest in that relationship. And I think that's a success. 

DJ Stutz  33:44  
I love it, and I love how you bring up meet them where they're at. So just because one child was doing something at three and another child doesn't, hasn't done that yet, that's normal, too. And so just meet them where they're at, and what is it? What are the next steps? And how do I build that relationship, continue that strong relationship within so I love it. Kat, you're amazing. I want to thank you so much for coming and being a part of the show and part of our imperfect heroes, family, and I look forward to talking to you again, my absolute pleasure, and I'd be happy to come back anytime. Oh, thank you. Thank you so everyone until next week, let's find joy in parenting. See ya.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai